Author Topic: The importance of understanding the difference between the New and Old Sorcery  (Read 59 times)

Jeff4freedom

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It's important to understand the difference between the New and Old Sorcery, because they are very different in many ways,
and each of us belongs to one of those paths.

If we are using the techniques for one path
 and we're actually on the other....
it will be frustrating and quite unproductive.

Now both the old and the new share one important attribute,

 you can even say one shared purpose......

and that is to
 evolve at a highly quickened pace.

That could be stated as the basic goal of all sorcery.

But once again evolution is circular, and moves first in one direction....
then reverses upon itself.

This has to be understood and is difficult for most because the common paradigm .....
that is actually imprinted upon most of our DNA,
 believes contrary to this....

....that it is like a staircase where we start at the bottom and climb up.....

and when you reach the top you have achieved the end goal.

But this is simply not true,

 though it's easy to understand how this mistake was made.



If we want to make this staircase analogy more accurate then we would say that, yes, we all climb this staircase...

and along the way we collect our description via duality...

seeking pleasure and running from pain....

where fear is a constant factor that helps guide our steps carefully,
to the proper spot on each step
where we hopefully will be safer and happier.

 But then we reach the top....

 BIG SURPRISE....

What the Hell,

I don't feel enlightened....

in fact I'm mostly feeling bored because I'm totally done with collecting this description....

this IS who I am......

 But now what,

 I thought I was supposed to be enlightened when I got here?



NOPE.



Sits down, twiddles fingers for a while..... bored with his "collection" and collecting....

But Damn, there ain't no more stairs.

He finally figures out there is only one way to go...

and that is back down....

But it's like Bizarro world,

 instead of collecting stuff,

he's stumbling across it on the steps and "Seeing" it from a whole new angle....

And at that point it is removed from his "Description".

And the whole way down this happens where all of the collection gathered in Duality to define his description.....is seen....outside of duality,
and vanishes from the description and returns to what it was
 before he attached duality to it.



So, the difference between a sorcerer and ordinary man is......

sorcerers freakin run on those steps.

The old sorcerers run up the steps...

The new one's run down.

The old ones collect the description quickly and with pin point accuracy....

and just fly up the stairs.

The new sorcerers are running down the stairs,

 "seeing" the truth of their collection....

being freed from it in their "seeing"....

and running down the stairs.

In the old sorcery Fear is a large factor.

In the New Sorcery, Love is a huge factor.

The old sorcerers DEFINED.

The New Sorcerers Contemplated (in the true sense,
 which is the opposite of defining, sometimes referred to as "Identifying with.")



"Seeing" is Contemplation,

it is the opposite of defining.

In defining we take one thing,

add it to another, then another etc.etc.etc.

and eventually come to a conclusion

 and then incorporate that into our being,

into our description,

and it becomes part of the defined Creation.



In "Seeing" we take those things we have collected and incorporated into our being,

 and remove the pieces that defined them, one by one....

until the description is gone and the Truth,

before the description

 is revealed.



The old sorcery dealt within duality, with expertise.



The New sorcery seeks Unity.



Everything Don Juan did was to remove the description so that Reality could become incorporated into us.



Creation is built upon the doings of the world.



Creation is a description.....

it isn't real beyond the description,

where it of course is considered reality.



The old sorcery sought to define Creation.



The New seeks to know Reality.



To the old sorcerers Creation was Reality.

To the New Sorcerers reality is what exists

beyond the definition,

beyond Creation....

The Primal Beingness.



At one time long ago this primal beingness was the norm,

the old sorcerers job was to define Creation.....

They did it and are doing it.

The new sorcerers job is to find again the Primal Beingness.

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"he's stumbling across it on the steps and "Seeing" it from a whole new angle...."

Right, and this point contradicts your points about recapitulation, as this is recapitulation built into how we function. This is recapitulation from the vantage of the Higher Self.

"The New Sorcerers Contemplated (in the true sense,
 which is the opposite of defining, sometimes referred to as "Identifying with.")"

Also right, but to contemplate requires being able to be clear on how the construct has already been defined. In other words to decontruct the definition through contemplation requires understanding the definition that is already there. To do this, to understand, you have to look at what is already there, and define it in more than the one way it is already defined. So contemplation is NOT the opposite of defining, but contemplation does require you to use definition in a way that transcends the binary oppositional nature of the construct. The moment we are sufficiently clear in our understanding then the defined thing vanishes.

I also know what you mean by "identify with", but again I have to disagree on your terminology. Identification is always unconscious and automatic and part of how we create the construct; we are identified with the construct already. De-identification is part of what allows us to observe the construct with impartiality that allows us the freedom to deconstruct it. BUT perhaps what you mean by identify with, is that to deconstruct by way of contemplation requires becoming aware of our "bodily" felt-awareness of the construct. In doing so we embody what we are contemplating. This allows us to combine what we know with our being, which as Gurdjieff taught equals understanding.

""Seeing" is Contemplation,

it is the opposite of defining.

In defining we take one thing,

add it to another, then another etc.etc.etc.

and eventually come to a conclusion

 and then incorporate that into our being,

into our description,

and it becomes part of the defined Creation."

lol, this is identification!

When we contemplate we don't draw conclusions, we remain open. But when we contemplate it is helpful to have a certain "thickness" to our thinking. As such when you contemplate something you have to compare it, relate it to various analogies, all this is a process of defining things! You can't think, mentate, ponder, i.e. contemplate, without defining. Just when you contemplate you aren't attached or identified with that definition, because it is created mindfully and with the intent to deconstruct it doesn't add to our perceptual baggage.

"The old sorcery dealt within duality, with expertise.



The New sorcery seeks Unity.



Everything Don Juan did was to remove the description so that Reality could become incorporated into us. "

Ok, so the process you describe for de-contructing the construct isn't wrong. But no where do I see DJ saying that the old sorcerers where what you say they are. Can you cite a source by chance?

I think the old sorcerers had worse issues than that they were creating the construct. You might want to compare some of the things DJ has said about Death defiers, and old sorcerers to what Rudolf Steiner has said about black magic. Not saying I agree with everything Steiner taught, but his idea of black magic practicioners is what I believe the old sorcerers where, if that is true,  they where not quite like what you describe... unless there is more implied in what you describe then I'm realizing. But my understand of Steiner's conception of black magic would require the practitioner of such an art to be capable of experiencing the non-dual truth. As such a person deliberately chooses to go against the interdependence of all life, not because they don't know everything is one, but because they seek certain forms of power that come from not caring about this web of life other than to manipulate it. Much of today's destruction of the planet ecologically speaking, and the growing divide between rich and poor is do to the practices of these old black (magicians) sorcerers. 

The old sorcerers where probably cool with everyone else being caught up in the construct, as that was a web those sorcerers could manipulate. Yet to manipulate they would have to have been free of it.

"To the old sorcerers Creation was Reality.

To the New Sorcerers reality is what exists

beyond the definition,

beyond Creation....

The Primal Beingness."

Agreed the construction i.e. Creation is not reality. Reality is beyond the definition, and it is the Primal Beingness. On the other hand your distinction of old and new sorcerers still seems arbitrary to me,  I doubt you have sufficient evidence to make this claim.


If nothing else, tell me why the old sorcerers had the job of defining creation? Why not just leave us all in the experience of primal beingness, why create a labyrinth for us to walk through? What was the value in creating the construct?

Jeff4freedom

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"he's stumbling across it on the steps and "Seeing" it from a whole new angle...."

Right, and this point contradicts your points about recapitulation, as this is recapitulation built into how we function. This is recapitulation from the vantage of the Higher Self. 

I'm not sure your Point here.

"The New Sorcerers Contemplated (in the true sense,
 which is the opposite of defining, sometimes referred to as "Identifying with.")"

“Also right, but to contemplate requires being able to be clear on how the construct has already been defined. In other words to decontruct the definition through contemplation requires understanding the definition that is already there. To do this, to understand, you have to look at what is already there, and define it in more than the one way it is already defined. So contemplation is NOT the opposite of defining, but contemplation does require you to use definition in a way that transcends the binary oppositional nature of the construct. The moment we are sufficiently clear in our understanding then the defined thing vanishes. “

Maybe from one angle you are correct...possibly the old sorcery view where rather than subtract from the definition you add to it...I call this, “idiot science”..  or Thinking he he (to be avoided at all cost if you wasnt to contemplate something).... Contemplation described simply is concentration upon the item of contemplation as it appears to us..... then we “Identify”....with it. In my terminology that means we “become it”...we let go into it's evolution....only from the outside edge, to the inside heart of it...and then beyond.

“I also know what you mean by "identify with", but again I have to disagree on your terminology. Identification is always unconscious and automatic and part of how we create the construct; we are identified with the construct already.”
No, we are identified with it's most recent expression...it's description....not it's reality.

De-identification is part of what allows us to observe the construct with impartiality that allows us the freedom to deconstruct it. BUT perhaps what you mean by identify with, is that to deconstruct by way of contemplation requires becoming aware of our "bodily" felt-awareness of the construct. In doing so we embody what we are contemplating. This allows us to combine what we know with our being, which as Gurdjieff taught equals understanding. 

Yes, this is what I mean by “Identification with”.



""Seeing" is Contemplation,

it is the opposite of defining.

In defining we take one thing,

add it to another, then another etc.etc.etc.

and eventually come to a conclusion

 and then incorporate that into our being,

into our description,

and it becomes part of the defined Creation."

lol, this is identification! 

Yes, of course we are identified with our Creation...

When we contemplate we don't draw conclusions, we remain open. But when we contemplate it is helpful to have a certain "thickness" to our thinking. As such when you contemplate something you have to compare it, relate it to various analogies, all this is a process of defining things! You can't think, mentate, ponder, i.e. contemplate, without defining. Just when you contemplate you aren't attached or identified with that definition, because it is created mindfully and with the intent to deconstruct it doesn't add to our perceptual baggage. 


What???   There is no mentality attached to the Meaning of contemplation, that I call “True Contemplation”.... what you are describing is what it has devolved into meaning....
But when I speak of contemplation, it HAS NO MENTAL PROCESSES..... it leads to an archetype whick clearly explains it's Truth.....The application of mind only comes into play if we have to describe it to somebody....which really just once again removes it's Truth.
Get it?


"The old sorcery dealt within duality, with expertise.



The New sorcery seeks Unity.



Everything Don Juan did was to remove the description so that Reality could become incorporated into us. "

Ok, so the process you describe for de-contructing the construct isn't wrong. But no where do I see DJ saying that the old sorcerers where what you say they are. Can you cite a source by chance? 

He he..... siting sources is probably something I'll never do, or flashing credentials..... Pointless and egoic.   My Seeing tells me this...And DJ when he spoke of the old sorcerers was speaking of something different I believe. He is confusing to me, or Carlos's intrepretation is confusing as so much of what he professes in the latter books seems definitly the old style as I call it for lack of a better word.

It has to do with the Circular evolution of Humans...... the first turn of the wheel is best defined as, “Seeking a unique separate expression”.... that's what we all do the first time around...ordinary man, ond sorcerers. I call the sorcerers on the first turn the old style....just for lack of a better term.   These sorcerers are collecting and ordering their Islands....
The New Ones are on the flip side, the “wheel turning back upon itself” as Mystics have called it....... here rather than a unique separate expression the soul is seeking unity....freedom from it's collection.....


I think the old sorcerers had worse issues than that they were creating the construct. You might want to compare some of the things DJ has said about Death defiers, and old sorcerers to what Rudolf Steiner has said about black magic. Not saying I agree with everything Steiner taught, but his idea of black magic practicioners is what I believe the old sorcerers where, if that is true,  they where not quite like what you describe... unless there is more implied in what you describe then I'm realizing. But my understand of Steiner's conception of black magic would require the practitioner of such an art to be capable of experiencing the non-dual truth. As such a person deliberately chooses to go against the interdependence of all life, not because they don't know everything is one, but because they seek certain forms of power that come from not caring about this web of life other than to manipulate it. Much of today's destruction of the planet ecologically speaking, and the growing divide between rich and poor is do to the practices of these old black (magicians) sorcerers.  

You see, here is the problem..... Black and White.... Yes you could say that the magicians on the first turn of the wheel are black magicians....but Black implies Evil, and they aren't really evil....Right, that is a dualistic judgment, the Fact is they are simply doing what they must...impeccably. You see there are a lot of things we could say about the first turn of the wheel.... but, folks take offense, as well they should. You could say that Satan is their guiding archetype.... But few ...very few understand that Satan and Christ ARE THE SAME THING, only as defined differently by where on the wheel of evolution they are. Christ and Satan/Soul and Ego.....are ALL ONE IN THE SAME.   Once folks get this figured out, and understand the nature of evolution...only then will they know true compassion, because , hey....the Plan dictates the process of evolution, and we all begin by seeking a unique separate expression...via duality, via chasing pleasure and avoiding pain...via all the nasty stuff that might get us called “Black Magicians”....But it's the way it is..... and the Black magicians just have it down to a science..and they DO NOT KOW the non-duality, it's their freakin modus operindi .But we all have been Black magicians...or still are.  In that whole turn of the whel we aren't much concerned with others except in how they fill our definition...how they fit into the dualistic “self” and world we are creating....This is their primary Job as the Law has made it, so we can't condemn them for doing what we have done and they must...

The old sorcerers where probably cool with everyone else being caught up in the construct, as that was a web those sorcerers could manipulate.

Yes, they could manipulate it, but not escape it.

 Yet to manipulate they would have to have been free of it. 


[size=24pt]No, not necessary.... The Will is a powerful tool...To know how to manipulate the cords, is just a simple technique..... learned by folks on both turns of the wheel. Same with a lot of other magical stuff...This is why I keep quiet about kundalini and certain cord techniques....because I'd rather not spur on knowledge that could do harm in the hands of "black Magicians"...   The thing is, the same knowledge can lead to harm, or heal....depending upon where on the wheel it takes place.   
And well, “Harm”.....What a new sorcerer would call harm, an old one would cal “Progress”
[/size]


"To the old sorcerers Creation was Reality.

To the New Sorcerers reality is what exists

beyond the definition,

beyond Creation....

The Primal Beingness."

Agreed the construction i.e. Creation is not reality. Reality is beyond the definition, and it is the Primal Beingness. On the other hand your distinction of old and new sorcerers still seems arbitrary to me,  I doubt you have sufficient evidence to make this claim. 

Once you understand the circular nature of evolution...it will require no evidence...it's self evident.



If nothing else, tell me why the old sorcerers had the job of defining creation? Why not just leave us all in the experience of primal beingness, why create a labyrinth for us to walk through? What was the value in creating the construct?


HA HA HA....there, you nailed it right down.   
Let me restate your question in different terms......

Why does God Exist...?

And the answer is....
The same as the Army's.
“To be all it can be.....”
Creation.....is a creation....
It is a built thing...
it is God's goal...
And “God” is all of us together. One thing.

I suppose the Primal Beingness is fine...but freakin boring after a while.... There is at the very Heart of Creation this Primal URGE...This, “need to become”
It is at the roots of evolution ….
But you can't build anything out of Primal Beingness..... thats all one freakin thing... You need Duality to get the ball rolling.... Duality is a nasty mistress...Gime gime gimme, get the hell away from me, get the Hell away from me...... and with this push and pull we all define our position in the All...in the Web.   There is a lot more detail to this, but not necessary at this point …  (because actually our “position” is pre defined, but the “quality” of our Separate unique being/ position is defined by us).

Jeff4freedom

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Crap, just read over my post...quite a few unclarifying typos...and where I said the Black Magicians modus operindi ...I meant the use of Duality, not any freedom from it.

Sea Daughter

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Crap, just read over my post...quite a few unclarifying typos...and where I said the Black Magicians modus operindi ...I meant the use of Duality, not any freedom from it.

I haven't had time to read your post yet, but I just wanted to tell you, that you should be able to fix typos -- do you see an "edit" button of any kind? I see a "modify" button, but that might only be for admins ...Let me know and I'll look into it.
"To those who would say that love is a dependency, I would say instead that it is the ultimate freedom, for within the creative force of love lies The Reason, which is the catalyst of all change and evolution." Mikal Nyght

Jeff4freedom

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No, I didn't see an edit button and when I went to reply, the post was gone (not like above it or anything) so I couldn't really see what I was replying to....Plus it was way too late and I had to go to bed,my son is in a Play this morning...7 years old..Shakespeare....... Heading off to that now.... I also haven't been able to get the Preview to work..