Crap, just read over my post...quite a few unclarifying typos...and where I said the Black Magicians modus operindi ...I meant the use of Duality, not any freedom from it.

I haven't had time to read your post yet, but I just wanted to tell you, that you should be able to fix typos -- do you see an "edit" button of any kind? I see a "modify" button, but that might only be for admins ...Let me know and I'll look into it.

"he's stumbling across it on the steps and "Seeing" it from a whole new angle...."

Right, and this point contradicts your points about recapitulation, as this is recapitulation built into how we function. This is recapitulation from the vantage of the Higher Self. 

I'm not sure your Point here.

"The New Sorcerers Contemplated (in the true sense,
 which is the opposite of defining, sometimes referred to as "Identifying with.")"

“Also right, but to contemplate requires being able to be clear on how the construct has already been defined. In other words to decontruct the definition through contemplation requires understanding the definition that is already there. To do this, to understand, you have to look at what is already there, and define it in more than the one way it is already defined. So contemplation is NOT the opposite of defining, but contemplation does require you to use definition in a way that transcends the binary oppositional nature of the construct. The moment we are sufficiently clear in our understanding then the defined thing vanishes. “

Maybe from one angle you are correct...possibly the old sorcery view where rather than subtract from the definition you add to it...I call this, “idiot science”..  or Thinking he he (to be avoided at all cost if you wasnt to contemplate something).... Contemplation described simply is concentration upon the item of contemplation as it appears to us..... then we “Identify”....with it. In my terminology that means we “become it”...we let go into it's evolution....only from the outside edge, to the inside heart of it...and then beyond.

“I also know what you mean by "identify with", but again I have to disagree on your terminology. Identification is always unconscious and automatic and part of how we create the construct; we are identified with the construct already.”
No, we are identified with it's most recent expression...it's description....not it's reality.

De-identification is part of what allows us to observe the construct with impartiality that allows us the freedom to deconstruct it. BUT perhaps what you mean by identify with, is that to deconstruct by way of contemplation requires becoming aware of our "bodily" felt-awareness of the construct. In doing so we embody what we are contemplating. This allows us to combine what we know with our being, which as Gurdjieff taught equals understanding. 

Yes, this is what I mean by “Identification with”.



""Seeing" is Contemplation,

it is the opposite of defining.

In defining we take one thing,

add it to another, then another etc.etc.etc.

and eventually come to a conclusion

 and then incorporate that into our being,

into our description,

and it becomes part of the defined Creation."

lol, this is identification! 

Yes, of course we are identified with our Creation...

When we contemplate we don't draw conclusions, we remain open. But when we contemplate it is helpful to have a certain "thickness" to our thinking. As such when you contemplate something you have to compare it, relate it to various analogies, all this is a process of defining things! You can't think, mentate, ponder, i.e. contemplate, without defining. Just when you contemplate you aren't attached or identified with that definition, because it is created mindfully and with the intent to deconstruct it doesn't add to our perceptual baggage. 


What???   There is no mentality attached to the Meaning of contemplation, that I call “True Contemplation”.... what you are describing is what it has devolved into meaning....
But when I speak of contemplation, it HAS NO MENTAL PROCESSES..... it leads to an archetype whick clearly explains it's Truth.....The application of mind only comes into play if we have to describe it to somebody....which really just once again removes it's Truth.
Get it?


"The old sorcery dealt within duality, with expertise.



The New sorcery seeks Unity.



Everything Don Juan did was to remove the description so that Reality could become incorporated into us. "

Ok, so the process you describe for de-contructing the construct isn't wrong. But no where do I see DJ saying that the old sorcerers where what you say they are. Can you cite a source by chance? 

He he..... siting sources is probably something I'll never do, or flashing credentials..... Pointless and egoic.   My Seeing tells me this...And DJ when he spoke of the old sorcerers was speaking of something different I believe. He is confusing to me, or Carlos's intrepretation is confusing as so much of what he professes in the latter books seems definitly the old style as I call it for lack of a better word.

It has to do with the Circular evolution of Humans...... the first turn of the wheel is best defined as, “Seeking a unique separate expression”.... that's what we all do the first time around...ordinary man, ond sorcerers. I call the sorcerers on the first turn the old style....just for lack of a better term.   These sorcerers are collecting and ordering their Islands....
The New Ones are on the flip side, the “wheel turning back upon itself” as Mystics have called it....... here rather than a unique separate expression the soul is seeking unity....freedom from it's collection.....

I think the old sorcerers had worse issues than that they were creating the construct. You might want to compare some of the things DJ has said about Death defiers, and old sorcerers to what Rudolf Steiner has said about black magic. Not saying I agree with everything Steiner taught, but his idea of black magic practicioners is what I believe the old sorcerers where, if that is true,  they where not quite like what you describe... unless there is more implied in what you describe then I'm realizing. But my understand of Steiner's conception of black magic would require the practitioner of such an art to be capable of experiencing the non-dual truth. As such a person deliberately chooses to go against the interdependence of all life, not because they don't know everything is one, but because they seek certain forms of power that come from not caring about this web of life other than to manipulate it. Much of today's destruction of the planet ecologically speaking, and the growing divide between rich and poor is do to the practices of these old black (magicians) sorcerers.  

You see, here is the problem..... Black and White.... Yes you could say that the magicians on the first turn of the wheel are black magicians....but Black implies Evil, and they aren't really evil....Right, that is a dualistic judgment, the Fact is they are simply doing what they must...impeccably. You see there are a lot of things we could say about the first turn of the wheel.... but, folks take offense, as well they should. You could say that Satan is their guiding archetype.... But few ...very few understand that Satan and Christ ARE THE SAME THING, only as defined differently by where on the wheel of evolution they are. Christ and Satan/Soul and Ego.....are ALL ONE IN THE SAME.   Once folks get this figured out, and understand the nature of evolution...only then will they know true compassion, because , hey....the Plan dictates the process of evolution, and we all begin by seeking a unique separate expression...via duality, via chasing pleasure and avoiding pain...via all the nasty stuff that might get us called “Black Magicians”....But it's the way it is..... and the Black magicians just have it down to a science..and they DO NOT KOW the non-duality, it's their freakin modus operindi .But we all have been Black magicians...or still are.  In that whole turn of the whel we aren't much concerned with others except in how they fill our definition...how they fit into the dualistic “self” and world we are creating....This is their primary Job as the Law has made it, so we can't condemn them for doing what we have done and they must...

The old sorcerers where probably cool with everyone else being caught up in the construct, as that was a web those sorcerers could manipulate.

Yes, they could manipulate it, but not escape it.

 Yet to manipulate they would have to have been free of it. 


[size=24pt]No, not necessary.... The Will is a powerful tool...To know how to manipulate the cords, is just a simple technique..... learned by folks on both turns of the wheel. Same with a lot of other magical stuff...This is why I keep quiet about kundalini and certain cord techniques....because I'd rather not spur on knowledge that could do harm in the hands of "black Magicians"...   The thing is, the same knowledge can lead to harm, or heal....depending upon where on the wheel it takes place.   
And well, “Harm”.....What a new sorcerer would call harm, an old one would cal “Progress”
[/size]


"To the old sorcerers Creation was Reality.

To the New Sorcerers reality is what exists

beyond the definition,

beyond Creation....

The Primal Beingness."

Agreed the construction i.e. Creation is not reality. Reality is beyond the definition, and it is the Primal Beingness. On the other hand your distinction of old and new sorcerers still seems arbitrary to me,  I doubt you have sufficient evidence to make this claim. 

Once you understand the circular nature of evolution...it will require no evidence...it's self evident.



If nothing else, tell me why the old sorcerers had the job of defining creation? Why not just leave us all in the experience of primal beingness, why create a labyrinth for us to walk through? What was the value in creating the construct?


HA HA HA....there, you nailed it right down.   
Let me restate your question in different terms......

Why does God Exist...?

And the answer is....
The same as the Army's.
“To be all it can be.....”
Creation.....is a creation....
It is a built thing...
it is God's goal...
And “God” is all of us together. One thing.

I suppose the Primal Beingness is fine...but freakin boring after a while.... There is at the very Heart of Creation this Primal URGE...This, “need to become”
It is at the roots of evolution ….
But you can't build anything out of Primal Beingness..... thats all one freakin thing... You need Duality to get the ball rolling.... Duality is a nasty mistress...Gime gime gimme, get the hell away from me, get the Hell away from me...... and with this push and pull we all define our position in the All...in the Web.   There is a lot more detail to this, but not necessary at this point …  (because actually our “position” is pre defined, but the “quality” of our Separate unique being/ position is defined by us).

Update -- As many of you know by now, The Death Defiers' Forum Facebook group was handed back over to me, yesterday -- minus over 400 members whom the thief removed.

Since then I have changed the group address from "yourownprivateidaho" -- what the hijacker had changed it to -- back to "thedeathdefiersforum".   Here's the link for those who were kicked out of the group and would like to rejoin....

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thedeathdefiersforum/

The day before the person hijacked the Facebook group for this forum, he posted multiple posts in the favorite books category, linked to illegal pdf's pirating the works of Carlos Castaneda, Taisha Abelar and others.

I understand that it would be nice to have free copies of these books as some may not have access to them, but I don't agree with stealing and I can't have illegal material on this forum.

Now Consider this:
OK, we understand the Law of Creation:
 Sustained thought, emotion Intention and sometimes Love eventually manifest something.....
If done with intention long enough that which manifests will attain a “life of it's own”...it's own volition.
So we understand this is where our Double comes from.

Now consider Ideologies, Religions etc.
You know these have a lot more energy going into their Creation than our puny Doubles.
 This is why it becomes difficult for folks to extricate themselves from whatever ideology they landed in....Just as they resonate with their Doubles, so do they resonate with the “Double” of their ideologies.
and once again the creation has a certain frequency that it vibrates at,
a certain magnetism specific to itself.....
So, just as folks are bound to their Double,
so are they bound to ideologies that they were thrust into or embrace.

Now consider Disease.
Consider the “germs”  that manifest certain symptoms that we call specific diseases.
There is a reason why vaccines will never work...and it has to do with “germs”.
Scientists are all about germs causing diseases so they attack specific germs....
The major flaw in this is that they don't ever ask the most important question....
“Where do the Germs come from”.
And the answer to this will Never be “cured” by vaccines.

Well the Mystics have long known the Law of Creation/Manifestation....
Energy of will/thought/emotion which is harmonious to the whole will manifest something that will be beneficial...
But Ideologies, religions, etc. literally manifest things....
it's the Law,
and what do they Manifest.
Well, if they are not harmonious with the Whole.....
eventually, they manifest “germs” of disharmony....
They manifest what is at the heart of mankind's Disease.
To put it more plainly,
any sustained creative energy that is not harmonious will eventually manifest on the physical plane....
Disease is one of these manifestations.
And consider what you already know...
Well first let me state that all creations seek Balance and harmony,
I'm 4th Ray....Harmony through Conflict....
Just as these”germs” I would say have very 4th ray tendencies in that,
through Conflict (the symptoms of the disease), they seek to balance the organism...
It's just the way it is.
We create the disease with our crazy ass belief systems.....
We create the “germ” of the disease,
which by Law, seeks to balance the organism.
It's like the New Sorcerers are Cleaning their Islands,
so Germs are cleaning the Island of the Masses.
All communicable diseases are Mass Creations that will effect the masses.
Mass Karma is manifested in disease.
Individual Karma can bring on problems and also define the type of manifestation of mass karma in the individual/
We get a disease in the throat...... the disease  can have it's roots in mass creation, but the location in the throat is personal karma.....crap we've pretended doesn't exist within us..... that ferments in the dark....creates the weakened areas where “disease” will occur.
Everything that we collect upon our islands....that we don't want....that we don't “like”....and so stuff in dark corners of the island (by esoterically and physically withholding our Breath/prana) from it)..... will eventually weaken the vehicle and either personal or group disease will manifest in that location.  Everything we “stuff” exists at a specific place in our multiple bodies. Etherically/astrally and physically, the Judgment of “Bad”  creates a blockage of energy...and “Good”....can create an excess of energy. Hence the “dispassion” of the Mystics. Because too little or too much energy/prana to the vehicle, will cause eventually a manifestation we call disease.
Group disease has at it's heart Religions and ideologies that seek to define things mentally and emotionally ….in ways that are not congruent with actual Truth....that are out of Harmony with the whole.   So at the Heart of “Group” diseases.
Epidemics happen because of  mass resonance with these Constructs of Ideologies that are simply not based in Truth.

Trippy Huh?